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Solin
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Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk
      #2342570 - 03/12/04 08:02 AM

Hmmm, I feel like a babe amongst the giants by posting this but, here is my working attempt at a Formal Research Fellowship.

Mnemoli’s Gate, The Hurling Disk:

A study of the Hurling Disk as a state of the model of the universe that is The Wheel and its various aspects.

[A Research Fellowship for the Theoretical Whirling School of Vivec by Solin]

What is the Hurling Disk?

“Like many things they cannot explain, the middle dawn is merely another excuse to declare good omens and portents, but unto you it should be known as the Hurling Disk, numbered seventeen…” (Excerpts from the Book of Hours v. 6 , Vivec)

This excerpt clearly states that the Middle Dawn, the period of time occurring after/during the Dragon Break of 1E1200, should be known as the Hurling Disk. The Dragon Break is said to be the “breaking” of the Aedra, particularly Akatosh. During this period time became non-linear. Eight stars fell in the sky, possibly falling to Mundus for by some accounts the Aedra, often thought of as stars or planets, walked amongst mortals. These star were used to “count days” during this unraveling. This event was supposedly caused by the Murahkati Selective’s dancing on a “tower”. It then “split into eight pieces” (1) and time broke.

When speaking of Mnemoli, the Book of Hours describes the Hurling Disk a second time. Mnemoli comes to see Mundus “during breakings of the sideways wheel” (2) . The Wheel is the structure of the cosmos. The eight pieces of the Tower, or sideways wheel, and the eight stars likely correspond to the eight Aedra or spokes of the Wheel. Now the Hurling Disk can be seen as the state of the universe during the Dragon Break.

“The spokes of the Wheel are the eight gifts of the Aedra, sons and daughters of Aetherius.” (The Tower v. 29, Vivec)

“The voids between each spoke number sixteen, and their masters are the sons and daughters of Oblivion.” (The Tower v. 30, Vivec)

In a state of normalcy the wheel has its eight spokes and sixteen voids. The Hurling disk is numbered seventeen though. If the Eight “fell” then there would be sixteen left in the wheel, so there must be one other. The other is possibly Mnemoli. Now the Hurling disk may be seen, it is the Wheel with its spokes removed.

What is the significance of Mnemoli?

“Of special note is the Blue Star, which the Alesstics call 'Mnemoli', that runs through this part of the Aurbis every untime.” (Excerpts from the Book of Hours v. 2, Vivec)

Whenever a Dragon Break occurs Mnemoli appears in Nirn’s night sky.

“Like many of her siblings, Mnemoli is both confused and delighted with the Aurbis, and explores its five quarters as best she can without the help and regulation of worship, which are not needed (by which I mean, always there) during breakings of the sideways wheel…” (Excerpts from the Book of Hours v. 8, Vivec)

Mnemoli, being un-worshiped, can only explore the Wheel during a Dragon Break because during these periods it is not necessary to be worshipped. Worship is the “key and the lock of the Deadra” (5). It is how they slip through the Seed-Apple, star, Latice. In the Hurling Disk state there is no Lattice.

“…according to the texts, Mnemoli is a wayward child of ANU, one of a pantheon of forgotten deities known as the 'Star Orphans'… a tribe of gods and goddesses that apparently felt abandoned when the Sun Withdrew from the World-Making.” (Excerpts from the Book of Hours v. 7, Vivec)

Mnemoli is un-worshipped because there are not enough, if any, who remembers her. The ‘Star Orphans’ retreated from the creation of the World with the Sun and were not made part of it.

This is the significance of Mnemoli. Mnemoli can enter and leave the structure of the Wheel around Mundus during the breaking of the Dragon (which is why it is possible she is the one other). The spokes form a barrier she cannot breach, the Seed-Apple Latice. Thus the Hurling Disk is her Gate. If Mnemoli, and outsider, can enter one wonders, who can leave through this same gate?

What is the purpose of the Hurling Disk?

“In this world and others EIGHTEEN less one (the victor) is the magical disk, hurled to reach heaven by violence.” (The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec: Sermon Eighteen v. 11, Vivec)

This is a reference to the Hurling Disk. Its purpose, as stated, is to reach heaven by violence, or as Pozzo, a Fellow of the School once said:

Quote:

“By violence here, it means as an act of violence, eg against the laws of the Mundus. To clarify, violating either the earth bones, the will of the daedra or an enlightenment of some sort...


I am convinced that "reaching Heaven by Violence" refers to an act against the natural order of things that will result in enlightenment or Divinity or whatever ‘Heaven’ represents.”




In this I agree with Pozzo.

To reinforce this, the Book of Hours claims the middle dawn signifies a “numinous gateway,” (3).

The victor is the one who is reaching heaven by violence he/she/it leaves. This leaves only the sixteen Deadric Princes and Mnemoli. Thus eighteen, less one, is then seventeen which is the number of the Hurling Disk.

Because of its significance in the universe I believe that the Hurling Disk has to do with the way of the Sword as described by Pozzo:

“2. Understanding of the universe, comprehending the ideas around time, or perhaps using the techniques of the Daedra to move out of time.”(4)

I do not completely agree with assessment but as a stepping stone it works. By knowing how the universe works, one can then break the Wheel and then Hurl the Disk.

The Seed-Apple Latice binds Mundus. To reach heaven the wheel has to break and the spokes must be removed. “Natural” laws must be subverted or broken. Then one is free to move out into Arubis. Worship is how one can return to this world. It is how the Deadra are part of this world without accepting its limits. The do not act like mortals and as such are not treated as such. Worship is how the King of Worms can come back, the Sloads worship him. Worship is how Tiber Septim (if he is not an aspect of Lorkhan and perhaps even if so) comes back, the Imperial worship him. If the Tribunal had Walked the Ways they could come back, the Dunmer worship them, perhaps this is their ultimate intention but then they would not be “Living gods”. Is this what happened to the Selective? Did they leave and assume the roles of the Pantheon of Men, already worshipped, thus finally separating the Merish influence from their gods. Is this what happened to the Dwarves? Did they leave un-worshiped? Or perhaps they tried to leave without breaking the Star Lattice, leaving them stuck in the voids between?


1. Where were you when the Dragon Broke?

2. Excerpts from the Book of Hours (v. 8). By Vivec.

3. Excerpts from the Book of Hours (v. 5). By Vivec.

4. 'Reaching heaven by violence: The six walking ways.' By Pozzo.

5. The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec: Sermon Thirty-Two v. 4. Vivec


--------------------
"There’s man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in Waiting for Godot

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Girai_Harkaanius
Acolyte

Reged: 01/28/04
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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: Solin]
      #2342715 - 03/12/04 08:51 AM

A very good analysis, raises plenty of questions. It also clarifies some things not made clear to my mind. Very well done.

--------------------
Just a Cyrodiil citizen who believes Anu is the answer.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. - Xal, a Human Maruhkati

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Nigedo
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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: Solin]
      #2342729 - 03/12/04 08:54 AM

This is very good work Solin. I think you have identified the essential issues surrounding the Hurling Disk excellently and your new ideas about the regulation of worship are brilliant.

I like the way that you have carried forward the debate about purposeful breaking of the Dragon-Wheel as a path to transcendance - this links nicely to recent work by both Mafafu, who makes a similar claim, and Nazz, who regards it as a way to Aedric apotheosis. I believe that you are correct to say it is knowledge of the structure of the Wheel that leads to the will to subvert its underpinning laws and that this is *one* method to reaching "heaven by violence".

As I previously discussed with Pozzo (in his paper which you have referenced), this is illustrated by the way that Vehk, having instructed the Hortator to reach heaven by violence, later revealed the rudiments of esoteric meaning in this instruction by showing him a type for the Wheel. See Sermons 15, 16 and (no surprise) 17.

I would like to see you explore the numerological significance of "Eighteen less one" further. Consider what 18 represents in mythic absolutes.

In the meantime, I am delighted that you have chosen to join the ranks of the Whirling School as our newest Fellow.



It is with great pleasure that I announce

the fellowship of Solin in

The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

in recognition of this well considered contribution made towards

a better understanding of the rational meaning of Vivec's teachings.



AE ANET CHIM


--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

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zingbat
Curate

Reged: 01/02/03
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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: Nigedo]
      #2343439 - 03/12/04 12:04 PM

Mm yes, another vhekie.



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Solin
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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: zingbat]
      #2343897 - 03/12/04 02:30 PM

The term would be "Vehkite" my dear zingbat. How nice of you to join us, clothed in green no less.

Quote:

I would like to see you explore the numerological significance of "Eighteen less one" further. Consider what 18 represents in mythic absolutes.





Eighteen would be six times the wise, Vivec, the Executioner, Fool, and Rainmaker. This relates to various model-states. Models set according an Ideal can not change their nature. The victor is the model that changes, not remaining static.

It is my pleasure to join such a group, I hope to live up to its name.

--------------------
"There’s man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in Waiting for Godot

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mafafu
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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: Solin]
      #2343970 - 03/12/04 03:02 PM

Quote:

It is my pleasure to join such a group




Quite the opposite, it's our pleasure to have you.

Quote:

I feel like a babe amongst the giants




Pardon me while I pick myself up off the floor, but you do yourself too little credit and us too much. And if you look at the beginning of my study, you'll see that you have a much better start than I did.

--------------------
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. - Richard Dawkins, Unweaving the Rainbow

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Nigedo
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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: Solin]
      #2344487 - 03/12/04 06:30 PM

Quote:

Eighteen would be six times the wise...



OK. But six times the wise is only one of the aspects of 18. The other is the Egg. I recently mentioned my own thoughts about the significance of the Egg in Phil's thread 'A Lost Dwemer Treasure'.

Although I don't think that 18 relates directly to zero, it is well worth exploring what it represents in terms that relate to the Egg. You can find more clues from both Phil's Provisional House paper and Karnath's Number of The Master paper.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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phil_t
Curate

Reged: 09/27/02
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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: Nigedo]
      #2348562 - 03/13/04 10:22 PM

Excellent and thought-provoking work Solin

Welcome to the Whirling School

Phil

--------------------
*Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec*
*Forum Scholars Guild | Tamriel Rebuilt*

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Solin
Initiate

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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: Nigedo]
      #2350169 - 03/14/04 09:00 AM

Sorry for the brief interlude, I had matters that needed attending.

It seems that I have been deaf to my own words. The universe is egg-layered and egg shaped (as stated in the Lost Dwemer Treasure thread). The Hurling Disk is a state of the universe and is thus a state of the larg(er/est) Egg. The Egg being layered has a number of boundries with in it that seperate its various portions. As I explained above the Seed-Apple Lattice blocks movement in or out of this region of Arubis. The Lattice is one of these boundries. So, Eighteen, the Egg, less one, the Seed-Apple Latice boundry, is the Hurling Disk. Is this the consideration you had in mind?

I am still pondering the meaning of "the victor" so I will have to look in Phil's and Karnath's studies to see if they elaborate further.

Thank you very much for the warm welcome.

--------------------
"There’s man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in Waiting for Godot

Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec | Mnemoli's Gate

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Nigedo
Disciple

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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: Solin]
      #2350476 - 03/14/04 11:00 AM

Quote:

So, Eighteen, the Egg, less one, the Seed-Apple Latice boundry, is the Hurling Disk. Is this the consideration you had in mind?



Ah, boundaries, yes.. good insight. And you could mention the Khajiti creation myth here. But think some more about the numbers one and eight, and nine, for that matter, being their sum.

Quote:

I am still pondering the meaning of "the victor" so I will have to look in Phil's and Karnath's studies to see if they elaborate further.



I expect you will see more before very long.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

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mafafu
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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: Nigedo]
      #2351014 - 03/14/04 02:12 PM

If I may, I believe I see two instances of eight plus one, no wait... it is really just one instance.

When was it that one was added to eight? This instance may seem meaningless, but if that one may not be who he first appears to be, then the two instances I mentioned are the same. Or at least, one is a metaphor for the other.

And speaking of "one" and a "victor" makes me think of this from Sermon 13:

Quote:

Rotate the triangle and you pierce the heart of the Beginning Place, the foul lie, the testament of the irrefutable-for-a-span. Above them all is the horizon where only one stands, though no one stands there yet.




--------------------
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. - Richard Dawkins, Unweaving the Rainbow

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Karnath
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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: mafafu]
      #2351798 - 03/14/04 09:40 PM

Excellent work, Fellow Solin, welcome in the Vehkite clan
Now you too can be considered as a lunatic by all the "regular" scholars around here

Quote:

But think some more about the numbers one and eight, and nine, for that matter, being their sum.




For those who like to play numerology, the Hurling disk is one and the Sword, the Egg is one and the Eight Givers (and the Missing Sibling's Heart is the last Egg), and the Provisional House is one and Lorkhan, which, when added, recreate one and zero.

By the way, I believe an interesting parallel (already prefigured by mafafu's comment) could be made between the Gate of the Aurbis/zero, and the Invisible Gate of the last zero (six times the wise, six are the guardians of Veloth - numerology is one happy game ).

--------------------
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School of Vivec

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phil_t
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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: Karnath]
      #2351918 - 03/14/04 10:54 PM

To make clear my own interpretation of the one and eight -

The Eight are the 'gift-limbs to Sithisit' of Sermon 21, the Aedric earthbones.
The one is the Heart Bone of Sermon 11 - the Heart of Lorkhan, Divine Spark, Hub of the Mundus, call it what you will.

The one and eight make nine, the frame of the wheel.

Phil

--------------------
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*Forum Scholars Guild | Tamriel Rebuilt*

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Nigedo
Disciple

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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: phil_t]
      #2351933 - 03/14/04 11:02 PM

Karnath - so nice to see you back.

Excellent Phil. Clear and to the point.

So what then is "Eighteen less one (the Victor)"?

Edit: I think that Mafafu may already have an insight into this last question.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

Edited by Nigedo (03/15/04 12:25 AM)

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Helton
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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: Nigedo]
      #2352019 - 03/14/04 11:45 PM

This probably has nothing to do with this thread, so sorry for that, but all this talk about 1 and 8 and the sum got my mind working just a wee bit this morning. So I figure I'll post what I did:

|-1
||-3
|||-6
||||-10
|||||-15
||||||-21
|||||||-28
||||||||-36

36 Lessons of Vivec. If it means anything, it just means Vivec had this in mind when he decided how many volumes the series would have. Again, sorry if this is irrelevent or already well known.

--------------------
"It's 106 miles to Arroyo, we got a full fusion cell, half a pack of RadAway, it's midnight, and I'm wearing a 50-year old Vault 13 Jumpsuit. Let's hit it!" -The Chosen One

"I'm no expert on drugs."-Hegemon
"No offense meant, but I am."-Hermit_of_Gilead

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Solin
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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: Nigedo]
      #2358771 - 03/16/04 05:57 PM

I must confess that this numerology has been a stumbling block. It has taken me a bit to absorb this information, but I have come to the same conclusions about the nature of 1, 8, and 9 as have been stated.

I was going to mention the significance of seven but Karnath beat me to it. I think it ties in nicely with the Way of the Sword and it reminds me of Sermon Twenty-Three:

I give you an ancient road tempered by the second walking way. Your hands must be huge to wield any sword the size of an ancient road, and yet he who is of right stature may irritate the sun with only a stick.

Which makes me think of the relationship between the Heart and the Mantella.

EIGHTEEN less one (the victor)

I have spent a lot of time on this and I'm not sure I have it right yet. I think I have been considering it as too much as actual math. Of 1, 8, 18, and 9 we know but, the term "one" used in the quote above is something different I think. I said once in private (before publishing this paper) that the term victor made me think of some sort of metaphysical conflict between two entities. I thought one could be the "ascendant" but the other I did not know.

There are two ways to approach the Tower, the Left and the Right, the two "extremes." This ties into some writings that mention the belief that a powerful soul that acted with such passion could transcend. The two figures that represent these ways are Sharmat and the Ruling King respectively. These are the two entities that are in "combat." One can only approach the tower from one of these ways, not both. So the victor is either the Ruling King or Sharmat.

--------------------
"There’s man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in Waiting for Godot

Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec | Mnemoli's Gate

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Susano
Adept

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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: Solin]
      #2359327 - 03/16/04 11:12 PM

According to Sermon 29, 1 is also the Tower and/or the Dragon Break... Now we do speak about teh Dragon Break here, question is how does this figure in?

--------------------
Serving honourably in House Redoran

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Nazz
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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: Susano]
      #2359344 - 03/16/04 11:22 PM

Perhaps this is going for something too obvious but, 18 minus 1 is 17. 17 is the number of "spokes" in the wheel when Mnemoli is present in the wheel. It is the Victor because at this point the person, or people has/have achieved victory over the wheel.

--------------------
The 4th of First Seed - Dusk and Dusk
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Nigedo
Disciple

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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: Susano]
      #2359441 - 03/17/04 12:03 AM

Quote:

According to Sermon 29, 1 is also the Tower and/or the Dragon Break... Now we do speak about teh Dragon Break here, question is how does this figure in?



You are quite correct, Susano. And the Dragon Break (the Sideways-Wheel break) is central, one might even say "pivotal", to the subject of the Hurling Disk.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

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Solin
Initiate

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Re: Mnemoli's Gate, The Hurling Disk [Re: Susano]
      #2370354 - 03/19/04 02:38 PM

This is side tracking a bit but, what exactly happens to an Aedra during the break? I've always thought of it as a sundering of the static and changing portions of the entity. A temporary form of what I understand to have happened to Lorkhan.

--------------------
"There’s man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet." -Vladimir, in Waiting for Godot

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